Why India Is A Nation

Oct 9 2003  | Views 29246 |  Comments  (628)
This urban myth is not accidental. It was deliberately taught in the British established system of education. John Strachey, writing in `India: Its Administration and Progress' in 1888, said “This is the first and most essential thing to remember about India – that... Expand

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  santhemant posted 3 weeks ago

Well said.Parshuram kund where he washed his hands of the blodd of his own mother renuka devi is In Arunachal Assam eastern border and LOHIT river is red due to this -so goea the puranas..Parshuram and his family are the other heroes who can be found in western coast re claiming sea to settle konkanastha brahmins as lore says or in kshmir to all himalayas and till kanyakumari. India as a antion orf plenty has given its people an inherant large heart to assimilate all from everywhere just like in modern USA..but muslims converts helped by pakistanis are today daily blasting out innocent Indians as all the rest of the muslims look on with sense of perverted sense of persecution inflicted on them by pakistani ISI et al ..Q TV and all the Muslim Indians have a role to play in converting the minds of the their own youth who are baying for innocent blood any how like the evil Joker in the Black Knight movie.Allah help them all.



  yrsane@eth.net posted 2 yrs ago

The polemical disputes which I see in this blog is due to the fact that 'India is a Rastra' in the 'Spiritual Sense'.can any one answer why and where he is born, who decides his geographical and family placement and the specific religious background and location?   This decision,it is seriously believed(Kant may have liked to call it 'A-priori')   ,   is taken on the basis of a cosmic spiritual structure.If one disbelieves then let him give some other reason.This requires a transcendental visionary capacity   to realisation   in a Yogic samadhi(Asampragnyat samadhi)   and understand the spiritual cause for Births and Rebirths.Today's materialistic sciences,however, have conspired to limit 'scientific temper' to oust spiritual knowledge from scientific enquiry because it is based on a different paradigm than theirs.Besides, the Political Rulers of the different Nation States(a concept of Mazini)   -their political rulers have   adopted a purely   materialistic and secular approach to the normal administrative and educational Institution's   rulings about knowledge.This is an ignorant conspiracy forced on the New successive generations.This is harmful,partisan ,cruel and attrocious.and really against True Knowledge and Evolution of Human beings and society to the next spiritual height from the present materialistic one.This is a change in the quality of Consciousness.Now all the level of discussion needs to be upgraded to an open levels.It would provide some answers.(for validity pl.see Def. 'Jati' and 'Desh'(Daishik Shastra -by Sri.108 Sombari Maharaj-A Himalayan Master-followed by Late pundit Deen Dayal Upadhyaya   of B.J.P.Theoritician in his 'Ekatma Manavvad' a Spiritual alternative political science   to marxism and capitalism   ).It is unfortunate that India is prevented from rejuvenating its spiritual foundations and cultural directions by Organised materialistic Religious conflicts and materialistic secular sciences.Those ,who have innate spiritual aspirations and born with this Cosmic mandate constitute 'Rastra' and India in that sense.   Y.R.Sane e-mail:yrsane@eth.net 11-2-2006,Thane,India 400601.



  mohan prabhu posted 3 yrs ago


I agree with you. But point to recognise is that in olden days none of the countries/ fiefedome had passport or visa. Ingress or egress was at free will.
Most of the city were walled and the gates were closed during night. so late comers had to sleep under the sky and enter the city after dawn.

Bharatvarsha extended from Afganistan to Indonesia. Kauravas were half iranis. The princess of Gandhar( a major city of present Iran) was Gandhari, mother of 100 kids.

but the Great Bharatvarsha was dis-integrated and became a feudalistic states engaged in sexual orgy and materialistic pleasure. Visit any fort and you will find sheesh mahal and Rang mahals and harem!

These same kshatriyas ( the actual curse of India) who were suposed to safeguard the mother land bent backward to please the English. Even today the collosal buildings in Delhi stand testimony to this act. Surounding the Rashtrpathi Bhawan( Viceroyal Lodge of English) you will find mini-palaces of Bikaner, Jaisalmer, Jodhpur, Patiala, Baroda, Jaipur, Scindia, etv wherein the royal ladies were offered to white skins( may be a shudra from England) for personal favors.

The country was not Bharatvarhsa anymore. You belonged to marwar, mewar, mewat, Oudh, Rohilkand, Vijayanagar, Bijapur, kakati, Chola, chera, kadamba, etc.

Lets give devil its due.
"So while the British were the last power, before the current state of India, to administratively consolidate its territory (as well as to divide it up as they left), they were by no means the first ones to do so."

Today's consolidated India was due to their selfish nature to loot the country.

Are we one today? No. I am a second class citizen in my own country because I dont belong to the majority?

The end result - there is no Indianess in Indians.

Saare ke saare be-iman, Phir be mera Bharat mahan.

Mohan Prabhu
New Delhi



  Alice Thomas posted 4 yrs ago

Sankrant,
Very interesting article. I will post my response after reading your columns once again. All your columns should be published as a book, both in India and abroad. Also consider translating your columns in Indian languages and try to publish in regional magazines. People should read these.



  ss101 posted 5 yrs ago

Hi Zafarji – better late than never:)

[That there are Indian Muslims does not automatically mean there is any such thing as `Indian Islam`. ] {I guess we just have to agree to disagree. }
--No we do not. You could DEMONSTRATE that there is such a religion as `Indian Islam` which is categorically different from `Islam` as such. Surely, you must have some empiric evidence to support your claim. It cannot just be an arbitrary opinion conjured up.

[Again, I would charge that this obsession with the question `what might be wrong with jaath` is more a function of religious intolerance, which is in fact rampant in secular circles, than of any actual problem that people face. The problem with our secular way of thinking, which has its roots in a Western religion-inspired culture, is that we are BOUND to find there is something wrong or constrictive about jaath.]
{Jaath constricts personal choice (JUST AS RACISM DOES) Just for example: it de facto limits whom you can and cannot marry. (There are fairly regular articles in the press where love matches between members of different jaaths lead to their murder BY THEIR OWN FAMILIES.) In parts of the country it still limits what you can do for a living, whether you can wear shoes or not, whether you can draw water from a well or not. I do not think that you can blame all this on secular thinking in the ELM. And I am sorry, but I DO think these things are bad and problems for Indian society. }
--Dear Zafarji, Thanks for proving my point!! Indeed jaath MUST be an evil concoction of us depraved Hindoo heathens. Too bad we infected `Indian Islam` leading to all those `Muslim jaaths`. Do Muslim jaaths constrict personal choice too? Or are these `problems` purely a function of those dastardly racist Hindus???
Since you are such an expert on ‘Hindu’ jaath, perhaps you can tell me on what authority that dratted `Hindu system of jaaths` restricts who you can marry, what you can do for a living, whether you can wear shoes or draw water from a well, etcetera. (Oh and how it promotes the murder of your own family, too!!) You must have read about it somewhere in that Gita, right??? (By way of corollary, you should also be able to show how the adoption of Islam or Christianity or secularism eradicates both jaath and the evils that are its consequence.)
And of course, educate us on why exactly jaath is comparable to racism. (Needless to say, I emphatically disagree with you. This is another demonstrably incorrect comparison).
Far be it from me to question your avowed expertise on jaath and India – after you’ve read all those stories in the paper, but one question arises in my mind. What makes you so certain that it is *jaath* that leads people to kill their family members? There is no `system of `jaath`` in American culture, yet there are scores of articles in the papers here about people murdering their relatives. No jaath, but still lots of people who won’t wear footwear (or ties!) – no jaaths here but there were still ‘Whites only’ signs in front of drinking fountains till a mere 30-odd years ago. (And there are still plenty of areas where this is the de facto practice). So why should I accept your contention that it is JAATH that gives rise to discrimination and domestic violence??? (not to mention racism).
BTW, Thanks for pointing out that the ELM does not cause discrimination and domestic violence either, but AGAIN, I never claimed it did!!!

[Satya, no offence but I find it interesting that not ONE Hindu who grew up in India and is posting on sulekha has actually agreed with you that there is no such thing as untouchability in India. ]
--Not so fast, Zafarji. Actually, I have made no claims about `untouchability` in India at all. YOU have! OTOH, you have failed to provide any cogent account of what you insist you have EXPERIENCED>
The point, I am sure you understand, is whether you – indeed any of us – have bothered to examine what we experience in India (like the experience you related at your friend’s house) in any context other than the one provided by our post-colonial education.
It is my contention that said context (the one we have all learnt and operated under for a few centuries) does NOT provide KNOWLEDGE about our culture.

[The reason I believe it does follow on is because, in your claim, murder is placed in the context of a CULTURE. The availability of guns, constitutional issues are things that might go toward why a particular society at a particular time has a higher murder rate. To place murder in the context of American CULTURE is to suggest that American culture, ie American ness by itself -- contributes to violence.]
{Culture includes economic, social and legal institutions. (And let us not forget the impact of history and geography on all of these, and hence on culture.) Have we been using different definitions of culture?}

--I do not think we discussed definitions at all. When I use the term culture, I am using it in the ordinary, everyday sense of the word. I do not see how any definition problem goes to the point I made. I reiterate: To place murder in the context of American CULTURE is to suggest that American culture, ie American ness by itself -- contributes to violence.
Again, I do not think our disagreement is merely a definitional one. Even if we grant that culture includes ‘economic, social and legal institutions’, surely you are not saying that the American institutions of this kind are murderous?? If so, I STILL disagree with you.

{Yes, because of the opinions people hold which are, at least partly, a function of their culture… Not at all. Why do you assume that culture is static? Of course cultures change, and as they change their institutions change with them. There is also a synergy there. }
--I do not assume culture is static. On the other hand, culture must be more than the changing opinions or institutions of a society. Suppose America were to institute universal health care today, would those of us who experience American culture wake up to find a significantly different culture tomorrow? Of course not! What we refer to as American culture would still be recognizable as American culture after healthcare passed (just as you can still recognize American culture as a distinct entity through the centuries of changes: civil wars and social upheavals it has undergone).

[In fact I contend that segregation did not preserve diversity. If there are any traces of diversity left amongst African Americans (the degree of cultural diversity among Americans of African and European descent is clearly infinitesimal compared to the degree of cultural diversity you can see amongst Africans from even a small region in Africa),] {Ummm, this would not be due to America only having about two to four hundred years to develop its unique culture (and hence unique subcultures)? The thing is, you seem to be saying that because America did not preserve African cultures in tact it does not preserve subcultural diversity. I think that is incorrect to conflate the in tact bit with subculture. }
--I think you are demonstrably incorrect to claim that SEGREGATION preserved the cultural diversity of African s transplanted to America.
Again, I made no claim about whether or not ‘America preserves subcultural diversity’. (Boy, You are really getting good at refuting things I never said…;].)

[A flaw in your argument. The celebration of distinguishing cultural characteristics that you have pointed to – in cultural trappings like language, art, music, fashion, hairstyles and the like started WITH the Black Consciousness movement (which arose in OPPOSITION to the dehumanizing practices of segregation and apartheid) AND MOST CERTAINLY NOT during segregation!] {You are ignoring the core cultural artifact: language. But again, I have a feeling we are using different definitions of culture. }
--If the Black Consciousness movement did employ the same language, it only goes to underline that cultural diversity was not preserved by slavery and segregation which preceded it. Arbitrary definitions of culture cannot change this.

[Amish society and culture barely resembles other American societies. Not sure I would call it an American subculture!]
{The fact that it is in America makes it an American subculture. (It is ALSO a German language subculture in the broader German speaking world, and a Christian subculture in the broader Christian world.)}
--Then the East India Company, British Viceroys and their families were an Indian subculture too (rather than say a British subculture)? And Muslims, Jews and Christians living in Hindustan a Hindu subculture, etc.? As for linguistic subculture, Vaisai, most of Europe is a Sanskrit/ Hindu/ Indian subculture. Are not German, English and all those related languages in the same PIE family?
Clearly, culture refers to something other than what country you live in or what language you speak. You or I, who live in the US and Australia, respectively, and converse in English would not have any reason to claim Indian culture as our own if this were the case.

[As for separateness being important to maintain cultural diversity, the most interesting thing about India is that she gives the lie to this theory as well. In fact, our experience growing up in India (at least in urban environments) is one of living next to, going to school with, relating to, people of all sorts of diverse cultural, ethnic, linguistic and religious stock (Compare that to an urban environment in apartheid era Johannesburg or segregation era Atlanta.) Yet, India remains startlingly diverse. ]
{I think you underestimate Johannesburg. Soweto had people from all over SA living in it, so all the SA languages (Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho etc.) were represented and used daily. Within their countrys paradigm they were/are quite diverse, thank you ; - ) }
--So is it your position that because different languages were spoken in South Africa, there was no apartheid there????? There was as much intermingling of diverse cultures and traditions in APARTHEID Johannesburg as in say Mumbai or New York???? Again, the issue we were discussing was whether segregation and apartheid in the US and SA promoted cultural diversity. You claimed they did. And I claimed otherwise. You point to the diversity of languages spoken in the townships under apartheid as evidence that apartheid preserved diversity through separation, apparently ignoring that large sections of downtown Johannesburg were for whites only. It is a bit like living in a slum and denying its filth because – `hey, MY room is clean!` Sorry, I m not convinced.

Regards



  Zafar posted 5 yrs ago

Hi Satya

Sorry for the delayed response.

[That there are Indian Muslims does not automatically mean there is any such thing as `Indian Islam`. ]

I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

[An individual`s or social group s culture may be influenced by religion; an individual or social group s practice of a religion may be influenced by culture. But this does not mean religion itself has been fundamentally altered by said culture.]

imo religion is a function of culture.

[Again, I would charge that this obsession with the question `what might be wrong with jaath` is more a function of religious intolerance, which is in fact rampant in secular circles, than of any actual problem that people face. The problem with our secular way of thinking, which has its roots in a Western religion-inspired culture, is that we are BOUND to find there is something wrong or constrictive about jaath.]

Jaath constricts personal choice (just as racism does). Just for example: it de facto limits whom you can and cannot marry. (There are fairly regular articles in the press where love matches between members of different jaaths lead to their murder BY THEIR OWN FAMILIES.) In parts of the country it still limits what you can do for a living, whether you can wear shoes or not, whether you can draw water from a well or not. I do not think that you can blame all this on secular thinking in the ELM. And I am sorry, but I DO think these things are bad and problems for Indian society.

[The conflation of jaath/varna with discrimination is virtually inevitable, even if the secular intellectual making said claim is unable to tell us what `untouchability` is exactly!]

Satya, no offence but I find it interesting that not ONE Hindu who grew up in India and is posting on sulekha has actually agreed with you that there is no such thing as untouchability in India.

[ a truly awakened person probably stops needing to do puja.]

Iz in Gita. ; - )

[The reason I believe it does follow on is because, in your claim, murder is placed in the context of a CULTURE. The availability of guns, constitutional issues are things that might go toward why a particular society at a particular time has a higher murder rate. To place murder in the context of American CULTURE is to suggest that American culture, ie American ness by itself -- contributes to violence.]

Culture includes economic, social and legal institutions. (And let us not forget the impact of history and geography on all of these, and hence on culture.) Have we been using different definitions of culture?

[Another case: I am fairly confident that most people in America would not say that they support good health care being out of reach of the working poor. Despite this, it . . ; (often?) is. IMO the underlying reasons for this are. . . having to do with the proper role of the State, Capitalism, individual responsibility, regulation and taxation. All of which rise out of American history and American culture.]
[This too, need not be a function of American culture, It might simply be that at this point in time, it is not possible to gain support amongst Americans to pass legislation that would raise funding for universal health care access.]

Yes, because of the opinions people hold which are, at least partly, a function of their culture.

[ (Which would suggest that perhaps at another time and place, it might well be possible.) If the lack of access to healthcare were a feature of American culture, we would expect that American culture itself would have to change in order for Americans to enjoy universal access to healthcare. On the face of it, this strikes me as an absurd position.]

Not at all. Why do you assume that culture is static? Of course cultures change, and as they change their institutions change with them. There is also a synergy there.

[In fact I contend that segregation did not preserve diversity. If there are any traces of diversity left amongst African Americans (the degree of cultural diversity among Americans of African and European descent is clearly infinitesimal compared to the degree of cultural diversity you can see amongst Africans from even a small region in Africa),]

Ummm, this would not be due to America only having about two to four hundred years to develop its unique culture (and hence unique subcultures)? The thing is, you seem to be saying that because America did not preserve African cultures in tact it does not preserve subcultural diversity. I think that is incorrect to conflate the in tact bit with subculture.

[A flaw in your argument. The celebration of distinguishing cultural characteristics that you have pointed to – in cultural trappings like language, art, music, fashion, hairstyles and the like started WITH the Black Consciousness movement (which arose in OPPOSITION to the dehumanizing practices of segregation and apartheid) AND MOST CERTAINLY NOT during segregation!]

You are ignoring the core cultural artifact: language. But again, I have a feeling we are using different definitions of culture.

[Amish society and culture barely resembles other American societies. Not sure I would call it an American subculture!]

The fact that it is in America makes it an American subculture. (It is ALSO a German language subculture in the broader German speaking world, and a Christian subculture in the broader Christian world.)

[If the latter is the case (and not the former), we would expect to find that people within American society are pressured to conform. You have lived in America for 10 years, so you must know about whether in fact such social pressures exist over here.]

Of course they do. They exist in every society. Put up a portrait of Saddam Hussain on the outside of your door and see the response it gets. That would be a rather crass pressure to conform.

[As for separateness being important to maintain cultural diversity, the most interesting thing about India is that she gives the lie to this theory as well. In fact, our experience growing up in India (at least in urban environments) is one of living next to, going to school with, relating to, people of all sorts of diverse cultural, ethnic, linguistic and religious stock.]

Indeed, but we have started to think more like each other than our parents and grandparents generations did. I do not think that this is necessarily a bad thing. But as we become less similar, we become less diverse. (Though of course new diversities are spinning off all the time too! Just like in ancient times written languages other than Sanskrit emerged in India, starting with Pali and continuing more recently to include Hindi and Konkani.) See, it is an article of faith that India is diverse, and that this is a good thing, and as far as that goes I agree; I just do not think that this is a static condition, we continue to be a dynamic system.

[ (Compare that to an urban environment in apartheid era Johannesburg or segregation era Atlanta.) Yet, India remains startlingly diverse. ]

I think you underestimate Johannesburg. Soweto had people from all over SA living in it, so all the SA languages (Zulu, Xhosa, Sotho etc.) were represented and used daily. Within their countrys paradigm they were/are quite diverse, thank you ; - )

Regards



  Zafar posted 5 yrs ago

Karna

[Indeed, in retrospect, just about everything you have stated on Sulekha (apart from "objective" "facts" or "news reports"), I will now reinterpret as being JUST YOUR PERSONAL VIEW, no more, no less.]

Well of course. That is all any opinion on sulekha is, whatever people might claim wrt representing X Y or Z.

[And people should be free to hold any views they wish (except those that might infringe on the rights of others, I suppose). Hence, whenever you participate in discussions regarding public matters, I will hear your opinion and just move on, knowing that you speak just for yourself and that what you state quite possibly may be very, very different from how most others might see it.]

Again, that is obvious. But then, it MAY not be very very different etc.

Why not just assess what I say on its merits; eg if I make a case, examine its logic rather than wonder about its representativeness?

Regards



  Karna posted 5 yrs ago

Zafar: "It is hard for me to see why Indian Islam is not defined by Indian Muslim behaviour. Are you focusing on de jure to the detriment of de facto?"

Zafar, since you have vigorously asserted that you speak only for yourself, I will submit that you might largely be blind, or living in a dreamworld.

Either that, or you know the ground reality and conveniently choose to not to admit to it.

Indeed, in retrospect, just about everything you have stated on Sulekha (apart from "objective" "facts" or "news reports"), I will now reinterpret as being JUST YOUR PERSONAL VIEW, no more, no less.

And people should be free to hold any views they wish (except those that might infringe on the rights of others, I suppose). Hence, whenever you participate in discussions regarding public matters, I will hear your opinion and just move on, knowing that you speak just for yourself and that what you state quite possibly may be very, very different from how most others might see it.



  Zafar posted 5 yrs ago

GSinghji

[then asked about his first-hand knowledge of the actual practice of untouchability. He related this story of a family's differential treatment of two ladies. Now we learn that none of them was untouchable.]

Er, actually three ladies, one of whom WAS untouchable. (The sweeper.) You all seem to be (and why is this?) forgetting about her.

[[Zafar] does well to state - on this occasion - that he represents himself and himself alone. On another occasion he presented the example of his family to downplay or deny the usual insistence on conversion as a prerequisite for marriage.

This openmindedness is not representative in any way and his opinions of muslim opinion. Even if he'd have us take them as that on other occasions. I mention this because we're apt to forget that (exactly where the problem lies).]

Gsinghji, thank you for the (backhanded?) compliment. But while you can say that I am not representative (indeed, how do we know that I am?), how can you claim that some hypothetical Muslim (unnamed but suitably close minded for rhetorical (ab)use) IS representative?

[It doesn't need a lot of intelligence to predict the outcome of trying to discuss demerits of Islam with the average on-the-street muslim.]

Indeed. And the responsibility for that lies entirely with this average on-the-street Muslim, does it not?

But while we are swapping rhetorical questions, here is one for you: it doesn’t need a lot of intelligence to predict the outcome of trying to discuss the gaps in the archaeological evidence re Ayodhya with a Ram Bhakt, does it?

Best Regards



  Zafar posted 5 yrs ago

Karna

[Zafar, while you might wish to stress that you "only speak for myself", this is a public forum, and you are, willy-nilly, speaking on behalf of Islam or Indian Muslims (and possibly, Muslims in general).]

No. If you sincerely want to get to know more IM viewpoints and to interact with them (argue with them, change their minds, prove they are wrong, whatever ; - ) you need to make the effort to meet them. Otherwise you might as well designate a spot on the wall representative of Indian Muslim viewpoints and address yourself to that.

[When I make assertions about Hinduism, these are indeed my own personal opinions, but I am speaking in a public forum and I accept that I am choosing to speak for all Hinduism, however fatuous this may appear.]

Again, no. That would, indeed, be fatuous. And your qualification indicates that you do NOT assume that no other Hindu thinks differently about things than you do.

[Indeed, those who might challenge me, will make the assumption that I am indeed speaking for Hinduism.]

Only if THEY are fatuous. And there always WILL be fatuous people trying to broadly speak for X Y and Z. Point is, does one dignify their unfounded assumptions merely because they are loud? And if one does, does that achieve anything apart from a deceptively satisfying argument; ie failure to dispute their claim does not make their claim true.

[Continuing the subject of "Indian Muslims" vs. "Indian Islam". When someone like Azhar (as in cricket star) visits Tirupati (he has, say his friends) -- as do many Indian Muslims who visit Hindu temples, or participate in Hindu religious celebrations -- is that an example of "Indian Islam" or is that Indian Muslim behavior?]

It is hard for me to see why Indian Islam is not defined by Indian Muslim behaviour. Are you focusing on de jure to the detriment of de facto?

Regards





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